图形化语言Scratch之父谈编程

米切尔.瑞斯尼克,麻省理工学院Papert教授,著名计算机教育专家西蒙.珀派特(Seymour Papert)的弟子和继任者。米切尔于1978年获普林斯顿大学物理学士,1988年获麻省理工学院(MIT)计算机科学硕士,四年后,获得该校博士。在上研究生之前,曾有五年时间为《商业周刊》做科学与技术记者。现在,他的研究精力放在如何帮助人们,尤其是孩子们学习未来的新东西上。

他是西蒙.帕派特 “做中学”建构主义观的继任者,同他的老师一样,在他看来,好的教育不是如何让老师教得更好,而是如何提供充分的空间和机会让学习者去构建自己的知识体系;更进一步,他在MIT媒体实验室的研究小组,名称为“终身幼儿园”,开发了各种教学工具,包括“可编程式积木”,这也正是乐高“头脑风暴(又称智力风暴)”机器人的核心部件。他还是“计算机俱乐部”的创始人之一,这是一个为低收入家庭的孩子们课后提供新技术,展示自己创造力的场所。米切尔的小组还研究了一种新式的程序设计语言,叫做Scratch,它能够更简单地帮助孩子们建立活生生的,动画游戏或交互式艺术创作。从软件与硬件结合,到推出纯软件的产品,这是MIT媒体实验室低成本学习工具推广的一部分,这种纯软的变化,使得孩子们只要有电脑,就可以通过设计和建造来做出自己的创意,这对于贫困地区和发展中国家的孩子们显得尤其重要。

问题提问与回答(据录音整理)

1 . How did your life become connected with computers and Lego Mindstorm?
您的生活是怎样和电脑及乐高“头脑风暴”机器人联系到一起的?

MR:(3:54) More than 20 years ago, I started working with Steve Ocko. Steve and I both thought over flap it changed could build toys that controlled with computer. We are very influence to find Logo by Seymour Papert, and Logo can control a turtle on the screen, and we thought it also control thinking in the world. (5:50) Let me try. I think a question like that is a very long and a very big answer. It’s about two or three paragraphs about. We thought it started about 1984. We want to make children building in the world to make control with computer, because we thought only good for children to keep at the building for children in the world and children programming on computer.

20多年前,我开始和Steve Ocko一同工作,我们都觉得通过努力能够做出用电脑控制的机器人。我们对Seymour Papert的Logo非常熟悉,Logo能够控制小海龟在屏幕上的移动,我们认为它也可以用来掌控对现实的思考。我想一下,我觉得诸如此类的问题有非常费时庞大的答案,它大约有两三个段落内容。1984年我们开始思考这个问题。我们想使孩子们通过电脑操控来做一些实践创作活动,因为我们觉得学生们做实践创作和电脑编程是很好的煅炼。

We thought it connected the computer with Lego brick. Only with a little bark will be quickly built to Lego, connect a Lego with a wire to the bark, and connect a bark to the computer. I thought it about 1984. (6:40) And we thought it a big pretential to know the children analog when they designing and building and give them an opportunity to build things better good building. Building with Lego and the children program with computer. So we get first working do it in 1984. And Lego Company came up with our products in 1988. For school, we call it Lego Logo. Could you built it with Lego, and control with Logo program language.

我们将电脑和乐高积木联系到一起。仅用一小块bark就能快速地建造乐高积木,将通过导线连到bark上,然后将Bark同电脑连在一起。那大约是1984年。我们认为了解孩子们在建造和设计时是如何分析,这是十分重要的,要给他们建造东西和更好的东西的机会,通过乐高积木和电脑程序来建造。因此,我们1984年最先开始干这项工作。1988年乐高公司开始与我们合作。为了面向学校,我们叫它Lego Logo。你可以通过Lego建造其实体,通过Logo程序来控制。

(7:28) The product introduced to school by Lego company about 1988. So we dare to think it Lego were connected with a wire to the computer. What that was a product we thought maybe you should take the computer even the whole computer inside a Lego brash. So we thought working on designing a computer on Lego Brash. We thought it started about 1988. We worked about 10 years, and ten years later, about 1988, the Lego company connected our Mindstorm as a good idea how computer designing a Lego brash.

1988年,这项产品由乐高公司推荐给学校。因此我们大胆设想它为用连线连接到电脑的Lego。这是一种可以将电脑的一部分甚到整台电脑都装入乐高积木块中的产品。1988年开始。我们研究了整整十年,十年后,大约在1998年,乐高将我们的“头脑风暴”做为一个很好的利用电脑设计的创意同乐高积木的设计联系起来。

2. Which role do you like better between your computer scientist and educationalist and journalist?
在科学家、教育家和记者三个角色中,您喜欢自己的哪一个角色呢?

MR:(8:56)I like the comparison(combination). I ‘m going to decide that do just one or just the other. I’m most happy when I can bring both them together. Because I think I can do were interesting thing computer thinking with education and I can do more interesting thing education with our thinking of computer. What I like can do is to bring them together. I think Journal and education , vary for journalist and educator are just help people understand things better.

我都喜欢,我有时不能决定究竟做哪一个好。我非常高兴我能将二者溶为一体。因为我觉得我正在做的是有趣的电脑思考类教育问题,并且我做的更有意思的也是教育类电脑思考。我最骄傲的是将他们合在了一起。 我觉得记者和教育工作者的不同在于,他们都是帮助人们更好的思索事物。

3. You were journalist for five years. I like programming, and I think it is the same as writing. What do you think?
我喜欢编程,觉得它象写作,您觉得呢?

MR: I agree. What recently we want all children be prepared computer programming because computer programming can ware first think idea where at first the writing bares think ideas. And not all children were grown on become professional writer, but so long writing is such an idea. Similarly, not call children would become professional programmers, but program are the best way to be the first think idea.

我同意你的观点。我们现在想让所有的孩子学习电脑编程是由于,电脑程序扮演了第一位的思考与思想,而刚开始是由写作完成这项功能的。但是我们知道不是所有的孩子长大后都成为职业作家,因此很久以来写作的意义正在于这一角色,同样的道理,不是让所有的孩子都成为职业程序员,但编程是最好的找出第一个思想创意的方法。

4. What do you think about Logo?

您能介绍一下您心中的Logo语言吗? MR:
(11:06)Logo is a very employmentive convey. Would I think Logo can help you think about the computers in new way. Maybe really I think Logo help me think children communicate with computer in thought idea and products are worked now. Perhaps, we do thought very employmentive Logo, you can think draft as Logo 25 years later. You try to do , you try by Logo computer in mother computer technology of new ideas with build the idea of Logo. This is idea of Logo, active designing. Logo is a very big big employment memory.

Logo是一种非常有益的媒介。我觉得Logo可以帮助人们通过新的方式来思考电脑。 我觉得,Logo从真正意义上帮助我,通过思想创意以及现在研制的产品。在思考孩子们如何同现在的电脑交流。或许,我们已经可以用有益的Logo思索,25年前,你就可以用Logo思考了。你可以尝试着做,尝试用Logo电脑去理解老的电脑技术上的新思想,通过Logo实现这些创意。这就是Logo的精神,主动地去设计。Logo是一个非常非常有益的思考。

5. What is relation between the Logo and Mindstorm Robot?
“头脑风暴”机器人和Logo的联系是什么?
MR:
(12:19)Both programming languages are designed for children. Both programming languages are designed for children these they are caring about. They both programming languages love children to organize thinking and built up ideas step by step into big and big idea. 这两种语言都是专门用来给孩子们设计的,都是设计了孩子们关心和喜欢的东西,二者都希望孩子们通过一步步地建造越来越大的创意,来组织思想和创造想法。

6. What programming language will we use in the future? Such as c, or c++, not children languages ?

将来我们会用什么程序语言?例如C或C++,但不是孩子们的语言。
MR: (13:10) I can tell you. I didn’t think that is important. Let me retell the language scratch. It is not an important language that we use. We can design use many different languages. What much more important to designing help children make use about it. It happened when we design scratch rebuilt built in a language called scgrate use for the birth of a small park. So we designed the language for the cricket, redesigned for the job. But I don’t think that very important.

我想说的是,我觉得那是不重要的。我重提一下前面说过的scratch语言。它不是一种我们应用的重要的语言,我们可以通过各种语言来做设计活动。更加重要的是帮助孩子们设计以及对其进行应用。我们设计scratch是由于在通过scgrate语言设计一个小公园时偶然发生的。因此,我们为“蟋蟀”设计了这种语言,并重新设计了它。但我不觉得那是非常重要的。

That was decision that we made when we happen to do. It’s a little about my care thing. It’s question he building make a brash what do exact chemical composition of the transit. That’s important to designing the start and design different pieces was very important. The chemical composition of the transit that were important. I use course to make (14:06) such as happened children care about and the composition of the chemical and the require thing. Similarly, I think it’s most important to design to use interesting to wake we use about.

这就是我们在偶然中得到的结果。这并不是我喜欢的东西。它是在做化学化合物转化实验时而有的。设计好开始和其中的每一部分是非常重要的,化学化合物的转化也是很重要的。我通过课程使学生对化合物 和其他所需的东西感兴趣。

同样的,我觉得很重要的是通过设计使学生唤醒自己对研究事物的兴趣。

6. The Lego products of Mindstorm robot and others , I think others is not good for designing for creative things, What do you think about it?

乐高“头脑风暴”机器人和其他乐高产品,我觉得其他的产品不如可编程产品更能进行有创意的设计活动,您觉得呢?

MR: (14:42) The first important and more important is most about the similarity. What similar is both involve children designing and creative thing. We designed how other people block were programming robot is both for children creating and designing thing. That’s for important. To the similar, to the most important for similar, The different between programming robot we make the examine to move , and interact, and react thing , with the traditional Lego product , we could start , make our own state on this way.

最重要和更重要的方面是关于相似性。这种相似性同时发生在孩子们设计和创造性活动中。我们的“头脑风暴”机器人也是为孩子们设计和创造性活动服务的,这一点是最重要的。同样的道理,最重要的东西是,在可编程机器人和传统乐高产品之间,是我们要以做一些动态的、可交互的,有反作用的考察,我们可以通过自己的方式开始,做出我们自己的东西。

6B In the begin of your lecture you give us a question about TV, Computer and Paintbrush. I think the programming robot is more useful and important than other Lego products, because my emotion about programming language. What do you think?

您在演讲的开始给了大家一个问题:电视、电脑和画笔中选择一个和另外一个不同的东西,由于我对程序语言的特殊感情,我觉得可编程机器人比其他的乐高产品更有用和重要。您的想法是什么呢?

MR:(16:03)I disagree. If I understand you can do what I think about imagination is regularly Lego brick also. They both put your imagination. You can have result by my talk about paintbrush. We could paint different kind of thing with the paintbrush , you can paint very different style, you both use such special obivious for real lative picture or act drive picture. You serve your discussion. The Lego brick product and programming Lego robot are both for discussion for different way of imagination. You use your imagination of the different pit of imagination. Reflect the pit thing , you walk your imagining thing stand on go you imagining thing to the moving. That is different, walking on the point you both use imagining and creative thing.

我不同意你的观点。如果我没理解错你的话,我认为乐高积木也能很好地展示想象力。两类产品都能展示你的想象力,你从我关于画笔的讲话中也能找到答案。我们可以通过画笔画各种各样的东西,各种不同类型的东西,你可以用它来画想象中的或现实中的任何图画。你可以用它来表达自己的想法。乐高积木和可编程机器人都可以用来从不同的角度表达各种不同的想法。你可以尽情地发挥你的各种想象力,反映各种事物.

7. Can you introduce Constructionisum and your cooperation with Prof. Seymour Papert?

MR: 我读博士时,Seymour是我的导师,是对我一生影响最大的人,我的许多许多理念来自于和他合作时的收获,Seymour的理论来源于皮亚杰。
皮亚杰的理论称为建构主义,人们主动地学习建造自己的知识结构。而西蒙的理论是关于什么是最好的帮助孩子们建立知识的方法——通过在现实世界来建构。
皮亚杰,建立知识;西蒙,在现实生活中建造是一种好的建立知识的方法。

Seymour built top that how people build a knowledge. Piage has the theory called constructionisum. People actively learn build building up their own knowledge. Seymour’s theory is what is the best way to help people build a knowledge_ building in the world. Piaget:Building knowledge Seymour:by building things in the world is a good way building knowledge

8. Can you tell a little about you life? What do you teach your childrens and students?
请您介绍一下自己的情况好吗?您怎样教自己的学生和孩子们?

MR:You can ask how about my way. There are many good things about my own learning in different part. I think what think about myself my parents were how enough to love me to take up a back yard to make my own mini gulf sport in the back yard. He can let a lot to by building my own mini gulf sport learning a lot faster. So I think early learning age by designing is a good way for me for learn. (1:27:30)I think for me I was very interested in for how help other people understand thing. After university, I worked journalist for several number years. That is one way demanded understand thing. After that I came to education and that is another way about understand thing. (1:28:30) I think teaching thing to other people and other children. You must port balance between give people the freedom working the care about how to match important idea. The teacher’s work is to give people the freedom work they care about on he to make connection to important idea. Connecting interesting Connect ideas

你问关于我们已的方法。在不同的阶段我有一些不同的自己的学习方法。现在回想起来,我非常感谢自己的父母在我很小的时候放纵我在自己家的后院里建立了一个迷你高尔夫球场,正是对这个迷你球场的建造中使我学到了非常多的东西。因此很小的时候我就感悟到,通过设计来学习是一种非常好的属于我的学习方法。我认为自己对帮助人们怎样理解事物很有兴趣。大学后,我作了几年记者。这也是需要理解事物的方式。那之后,我进入教育界,那也是另一种理解事情的方式,我认为教给他人和孩子事情。你必须平衡,给人们自己关注工作的自由与如何匹配重要的创意。教师的工作是促成人们的自由工作与重要创意的联结。

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Scratch是由麻省理工学院(MIT)设计开发的一款面向少年的简易编程工具,是适合于全世界儿童学习编程和交流的工具和平台